4.Marc-Antoine Julliard — Testimony
576 linesJUDGE KAPLAN: Good afternoon, folks. We are still missing a juror at last count, but I gather there's something you wanted to raise with me, so let's try.
MS. SASSOON: Yes, your Honor. Last night the government shared with the defense the exhibits it intends to introduce through its first and second witnesses, and the defense noted that it had some objections to those exhibits, and so we thought we could address them now for efficiency.
JUDGE KAPLAN: There's a binder up here that looks like it's got a couple dozen exhibits in it. So what are we talking about?
MS. SASSOON: We're going to pass to your Honor the binder of exhibits for the witness, Adam Yedidia, which are going to be discussed now.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Okay. So what are we talking about? This one has even more.
MS. SASSOON: The government intends to present this witness with a binder of photographs, and I have a copy of that binder here, which I can share with the Court. Otherwise it's at Tab 1500-1555 of your Honor's binder. These are photographs of the Albany penthouse apartment, and my understanding is that the defense objects to some of these.
JUDGE KAPLAN: To some or all of them, Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: Well, your Honor, there are two flavors of objections. We'll start with the specific photos. Generally they are cumulative. In our view there's tons of photos in there about the same apartment. I don't know if they're all actually necessary. But let's start with the actual specific objections. There's 1533, 1549, and 1550. I'll tell you the objection after you've taken a look.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes. So?
MR. EVERDELL: So, your Honor, each of those photographs, you can see a large luxury yacht in the photograph. The government has opened on the fact that they intend to show and argue that the defendant spent lavishly on himself with customer funds, and there's no evidence in the record at all that he bought a yacht or anything really expensive like that with any funds, and I think the jury sees photographs——
JUDGE KAPLAN: Other than the $30 million condo, which used to be expensive in New York.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, there are obviously a lot of photographs of the condo so we're not objecting to every single one of those, but the ones with the yacht in the background, the jury could assume everyone who had a house in this complex owns a yacht like that, and that's not what the evidence shows and that's I think prejudicial.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Overruled. Let's get the jury.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, one point while we wait for the jury to come in. For the introductory witness, there are at least two stipulations. They are in your binder. For Marc-Antoine Julliard. They are Government Exhibit 2000 and Government Exhibit 2001. Based on the length of the stipulations, with the Court's permission, we will offer the stipulation but we will not publish or read it to the jury.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Then what's the point of offering it?
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, we just will not publish it for the jury and read it out loud. We can——
JUDGE KAPLAN: Look, that's not the point.
MS. KUDLA: It authenticates the exhibits that we are going to offer and publish to the jury.
JUDGE KAPLAN: All right. You don't have to read them. I mean, I don't think anybody wants you to read them. You'll just offer them and they'll be received, I assume.
MS. KUDLA: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Okay.
COURT CLERK: Okay. Jury entering.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Okay. The record will reflect that the defendant and the jurors are all present, as has been the case throughout. The government will call its first witness.
MS. KUDLA: Thank you, your Honor. The government calls Marc-Antoine Julliard.
COURT CLERK: Sir, please come this way. Please step around and remain standing for a moment, and raise your right hand.
(Witness sworn)
COURT CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated. And if you could please state your name and spell your first and last names for the record.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: My name is Marc-Antoine Julliard.
COURT CLERK: If you could just step back a little bit from the mic. That's perfect.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: M-A-R-C hyphen A-N-T-O-I-N-E. And my last name is Julliard, J-U-L-L-I-A-R-D.
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may proceed, Ms. Kudla.
MS. KUDLA: Thank you, your Honor. MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, where are you from?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I'm from a Paris suburb in France.
MS. KUDLA: And did you grow up in France?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I have.
MS. KUDLA: Do you still live in France?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I do not.
MS. KUDLA: And where do you live now?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I live in London for the last ten years.
MS. KUDLA: Now what do you do for a living in London?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I work in commodities trading, and I'm specialized as a cocoa broker.
MS. KUDLA: Have you ever bought or sold cryptocurrency?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I have.
MS. KUDLA: And did you ever buy and sell cryptocurrency on FTX.com?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I have.
MS. KUDLA: Now let's start off: What was FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: A centralized exchange allowing customers of retail or professional investors to accept——access cryptocurrencies trading.
MS. KUDLA: So let's break that down. You mentioned a centralized exchange to access cryptocurrency. What is cryptocurrency?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It's a digital online currency that is not state or not government regulated and that works on a blockchain process.
MS. KUDLA: So you mentioned state- or government-owned currency. Is there an example of that?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. We refer to that as fiat currency.
MS. KUDLA: And are there different types of cryptocurrency, Mr. Julliard?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, many of them.
MS. KUDLA: Can you provide a few examples to the jury.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Bitcoin, Ethereum are the main two I would look at.
MS. KUDLA: So I want to turn back to FTX for a moment. How did you first learn about FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Through a friend.
MS. KUDLA: Now after hearing about FTX through your friend, did you take any additional steps to learn more about the exchange?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I went onto Google, researched it online.
MS. KUDLA: And before going into what you learned, why did you research FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I was about to commit significant amounts of money to trading cryptocurrencies, and I wanted to be sure of what I was dealing with, so I wanted to assess the exchange.
MS. KUDLA: And you mentioned that you went online. Can you describe the types of online resources you reviewed.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I went onto the website first; I went onto newswires; I researched many articles on Google and also used——via social media.
MS. KUDLA: And what type of social media are some of the examples that you used?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would use Twitter.
MS. KUDLA: And with respect to Twitter, did you follow any particular accounts?
MS. KUDLA: And which were those?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would follow the official account of the exchange FTX, and I would also follow the account of its CEO.
MS. KUDLA: And who was the CEO of FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Sam Bankman-Fried.
MS. KUDLA: Now as part of your research, did you ever see any photographs of Mr. Bankman-Fried?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, plenty online.
MS. KUDLA: Can we please show for the witness what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 1633.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, who is this?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The CEO of FTX.
MS. KUDLA: And as you previously identified, that is Mr. Bankman-Fried?
MS. KUDLA: The government offers Government Exhibit 1633.
MR. COHEN: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 1633 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Now, Mr. Julliard, in the news articles and online research you were doing, how was Mr. Bankman-Fried described in the publications?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: He would come across to me as the future face of the general crypto industry, as a leading CEO and a leader of the industry.
MS. KUDLA: How did Mr. Bankman-Fried stand out in any way, if at all, compared to others in the cryptocurrency industry?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Wanting to do good towards the industry; giving access to customers, retail investors like me; provide to the platform a great user-friendly access; and to me, just wanted to develop the industry, really, is how I felt.
MS. KUDLA: And what effect, if any, did that have on you in choosing FTX as a cryptocurrency exchange?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The level of engagement was important and as well as when I researched the company, the number of users and the size of the exchange, which came across to me as second biggest in the top three biggest exchanges, that combined together was important to my decision.
MS. KUDLA: So let's focus for a moment on FTX. You mentioned the number of users was an important factor for you. In particular, why did the number of users stood out?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I joined cryptocurrency trading later than many people, in the spring of 2021. Many people were trading already. Bitcoin existed at the time for somewhere around 10 or 12 years, maybe more. So I considered that a vouch——a vote of confidence from these people, and I felt comfortable that having users around the world and a presence in most continents, the size of it led me to believe that I was comfortable.
MS. KUDLA: And in particular, apart from the size of FTX, did anything else stand out to you about FTX during your research?
MS. KUDLA: During the course of your research did you ever learn about any investors into FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Major venture capital firms seemed to have been involved in investing in the company itself, FTX.
MS. KUDLA: And what, if any, effect did the fact that major venture capital firms had invested into FTX have on you?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, they don't commit hundreds of millions without doing due diligence, checking the books, the accountancy of the firm, going through several compliance process, so that was also a vote of confidence for me.
MS. KUDLA: Now as part of your research, Mr. Julliard, did you ever see any advertisements about FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I did.
MS. KUDLA: And can you provide an example of some of the types of advertisements that you saw.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would——I remember Formula One sponsorship.
MS. KUDLA: What is Formula One?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Car racing.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And in the advertisements that you saw, did you ever see individuals featured or hear about individuals featured in advertisements for FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: There were on social media celebrities, influencers advertising for FTX.
MS. KUDLA: Any particular celebrities or influencers that you recall sitting here today?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I do remember one.
MS. KUDLA: Who was that?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: A model, Gisele. I don't know her last name.
MS. KUDLA: The government offers Government Exhibit S-2000, a stipulation; and pursuant to that stipulation as to authenticity, the government offers Government Exhibit 902.
JUDGE KAPLAN: S-2000 is received.
(Government's Exhibit S-2000 received in evidence)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Government Exhibit 902 is received.
(Government's Exhibit 902 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, do you recognize anyone in this ad?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, the person I just mentioned.
MS. KUDLA: And what is her name, first name?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Gisele.
MS. KUDLA: We can take that down now.
MS. KUDLA: Now what impression, if any, did FTX marketing materials that you described with Formula One, Gisele, and others have on you, as you researched the company?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, I can think of another example when it comes to marketing. I didn't see the ad, but I remember reading online that FTX was advertising the company at the Super Bowl, so you're under the impression when you commit major amounts in marketing at major events, that you have some financials behind the company.
MS. KUDLA: Now, Mr. Julliard, did you ever open an FTX customer account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I have.
MS. KUDLA: And approximately when did that occur?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: In the spring of 2021.
MS. KUDLA: So pursuant to Government Exhibit S-2000 as to authenticity, the government now offers Government Exhibit 587.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 587 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You certainly may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, what is Government Exhibit 587?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The website page of FTX for creating your account.
MS. KUDLA: Is this one of the first FTX online pages that you were directed to when creating your account?
MS. KUDLA: And what is the box below email and password?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: "I agree to the FTX terms of service."
MS. KUDLA: Now did you have to accept the FTX terms of service to open your account?
MS. KUDLA: After you opened your FTX account, Mr. Julliard, did you need to fund your account to begin trading?
MS. KUDLA: So pursuant to Government Exhibit S-2000, the stipulation as to authenticity, the government offers Government Exhibit 590.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 590 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, what is Government Exhibit 590?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This is the FTX website page giving you four ways of funding your account.
MS. KUDLA: And which of these ways did you use to fund your FTX account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would only use the last three——credit or debit cards, wire transfer, or cryptocurrencies; but nearly most of it, wire transfer.
MS. KUDLA: Now after you opened and funded your FTX account did you engage in cryptocurrency trading?
MS. KUDLA: And pursuant to Government Exhibit S-2000 as to authenticity, the government now offers Government Exhibit 599.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 599 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: And may we publish to the jury?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, what are we looking at now in Government Exhibit 599?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The FTX website page with the product offering, what you could trade with the website.
MS. KUDLA: Now what, if any, of these various products that we see here did you use?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would use the spot trading.
MS. KUDLA: And can you describe for the jury what spot trading is.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would directly trade the instant price of cryptocurrencies on the blockchain.
MS. KUDLA: So using the example of Bitcoin, can you provide an example, a simple example of spot trading.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. I would have funded my account with fiat currency, GBP, Great British Pounds, or US dollars, and with that, I would be able to buy, for instance, one Bitcoin.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And then what is the goal after you buy the Bitcoin with that type of trading, later on?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I had a pretty simple long-term strategy. I would accumulate over a period of time Bitcoins and with a view to sell within five to ten years back, hopefully at higher prices.
MS. KUDLA: Now does spot trading involve trading on margin?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It does not.
MS. KUDLA: And what is margin trading?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I'm not especially, but my understanding, it gives you leverage to commit bigger amounts of funds than you actually have, so you're borrowing money, in a sense.
MS. KUDLA: And Mr. Julliard, to be clear, did you engage in margin trading on the FTX exchange?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would not.
MS. KUDLA: So we can take that down now. And can we please show Mr. Julliard what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 426.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, do you recognize what is shown on your screen?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The history of my deposits on FTX.
MS. KUDLA: The government offers Government Exhibit 426.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Any objection?
MR. COHEN: No, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 426 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish, your Honor?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: So, Mr. Julliard, you testified that this was your deposit history. Is this the deposit history shown here from the FTX website or the FTX mobile app?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This would be from the mobile app.
MS. KUDLA: And how frequently did you use the FTX mobile app?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Certainly daily; probably almost hourly.
MS. KUDLA: And what were you using it for?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, for trading and monitoring the price change of the crypto monies I was interested in and monitoring the price changes of my portfolio.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Ahuja, can we please pull up Mr. Julliard's deposit history from April 20, '22, to May 12, 2022.
MS. KUDLA: First, to orient the jury, what is USD?
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'm sorry. Let's just get it clear. Is Government Exhibit 426 a multiple-page exhibit?
MS. KUDLA: No, it's not, your Honor. It's a one-page exhibit.
JUDGE KAPLAN: So what are you referring to now?
MS. KUDLA: It is the portion——it's a callout of the deposit history on specific dates. Do you see that in the middle? Below GBP, there will be a date, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes, I see that.
MS. KUDLA: And so all we're doing is calling out the deposit history for a particular period of time, April 2022 to May 12, 2022.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, I'm not sure I follow. Is this——
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'm not sure either.
MR. COHEN: Yeah. Is this a new exhibit?
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'm told that Government 426 is a single page.
MS. KUDLA: Yes, this is a——
JUDGE KAPLAN: Except at the bottom, on the left image on the screen, it says page 6 of 9.
MR. COHEN: That's what I was looking at.
JUDGE KAPLAN: That refers, presumably, to the 3600 materials. So I'm really not a hundred percent clear how the image on the right side of my screen is any different than the image on the left side, other than the fact that the border is different, and I don't know how you're calling out if 426 is a one-page exhibit. You follow me?
MS. KUDLA: I do, your Honor. I think I can help. We're just trying to make it larger for the jury to see. I can ask Mr. Julliard a few questions to clarify. And Mr. Ahuja, could we take down the callout and just show the exhibit.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Okay.
MS. KUDLA: There we go.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: So Mr. Julliard, to help orient the Court and the jury, how did you have this history shown here? How did you get this?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This would be a screenshot I've taken of my history deposits on my iPhone at the time the app was working.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And let's start at the bottom of Government Exhibit 426, where it says GBP, May 19, 2021, that bottom row there. Mr. Julliard, what is the date? What do we see there? What does that bottom row represent?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This is the very first deposit I made——I made on my FTX account to try out the process and make sure it was functioning correctly for me.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And how much money did you deposit at that point in time?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This would have been 50 pounds.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And then what was the next deposit after that?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I transferred some Doge currency.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And so are the remaining deposits here deposits——your entire deposit history on FTX?
MS. KUDLA: Okay. So at this point in time I'd like to focus on your deposit history that was from April 20, 2022, to May 12, 2022. And what I've done here is just magnified it for you to be able to see. Can you see it now?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. Thank you.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. So Mr. Julliard, starting off, what is USD?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: United States national currency.
MS. KUDLA: Okay. And then we also see BTC. What is BTC?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: This would be cryptocurrency, Bitcoin.
MS. KUDLA: And you've already told us what GBP is. Now during this time period of April 20, 2022, to May 12, 2022, approximately how much money did you deposit into your FTX account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: 110,000 pounds.
MS. KUDLA: Now what is the approximate US dollar equivalent of that?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The rate varies, but it would be somewhere between 140, $150,000.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, was that a significant amount of money for you at this period of time?
MS. KUDLA: Setting aside trading risk, did you have any major concerns about the safety of depositing your money into your FTX account?
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Ahuja, we can take that down now.
MS. KUDLA: Now when you deposited your money into your FTX account, did you see that deposit recorded anywhere?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, in the history of deposits.
MS. KUDLA: Could we please show the witness what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 425.
MS. KUDLA: And, Mr. Julliard, do you recognize this exhibit?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. This would be a screenshot of my portfolio I've taken at some point in time. I don't know the date.
MS. KUDLA: The government offers Government Exhibit 425.
MR. COHEN: No objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 425 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, looking at Government Exhibit 425, where is your FTX account balance shown, if anywhere?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: On the top left, just on the wallet balance.
MS. KUDLA: Now you mentioned the term "wallet balance." What is a wallet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It's——it's akin to my account, but it's the aggregated value of all my positions, so fiat currency and cryptocurrency converted to the US dollar rate.
MS. KUDLA: Do you see any difference between the term your "wallet" or your FTX account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would not.
MS. KUDLA: Now how frequently would you see your FTX wallet balance?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Daily.
MS. KUDLA: And when you saw your FTX wallet balance recorded in the manner that we see here, what effect, if any, did it have on you?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I was——no effect. It was the value of my holdings.
MS. KUDLA: Did you have any understanding about whether you could withdraw the money that you see here?
MS. KUDLA: And what was your understanding about that?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: That I could withdraw it at any point in time.
MS. KUDLA: Was the ability to control when you were able to withdraw your deposits at any point in time an important asset to you?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, it was essential. I wouldn't put money somewhere if I couldn't take it back with me.
MS. KUDLA: So Mr. Julliard——
MS. KUDLA: And Mr. Ahuja, we could take it back for a moment now.
MS. KUDLA: Let's switch gears for a minute. You testified earlier that FTX was a cryptocurrency exchange to buy and sell crypto. What was your understanding about how FTX made money?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It would charge a fee on each and every single trade.
MS. KUDLA: And did you pay FTX trading fees?
MS. KUDLA: And when you deposited money into your FTX account, did you expect anyone other than you would use your money?
MS. KUDLA: Did you ever agree to lend out your money?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Not that I can recall.
MS. KUDLA: Did you expect that anyone would borrow or lend out your money?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: No, and this is why I refrained from trading certain products that were offering interest rates if you lend your cryptocurrencies. I would refuse to trade that.
MS. KUDLA: Now I want to focus for a moment. If another party was borrowing your deposits, the 110,000 Great British Pounds we just looked at, would you have considered that information important to know?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Essential.
MS. KUDLA: Why?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: If I trade, I'm responsible of my own decisions and I bear the consequences. I had the strategy. I was prepared for——I knew how it was calculated and for what period of time. If someone else trades on my behalf, all for themselves and face consequences, that's not the consequences of my actions. If money is lost, I'm not responsible for it. That's not what I signed up for.
MS. KUDLA: When you evaluated the risks associated with cryptocurrency trading, did you ever consider the risk that FTX was borrowing your money?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I did not.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, you mentioned certain products. Did you ever opt into any FTX trading market that allowed you to lend your deposits to other FTX customers?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Not that I can recall.
MS. KUDLA: And did you ever see in your FTX account a reflection of any interest payments that would suggest that your money was being borrowed?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Not that I can recall.
MS. KUDLA: Let's focus for a moment. After opening your FTX account did you continue in any way to follow news about FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, alongside general cryptocurrency news.
MS. KUDLA: Did you continue to follow any news about Mr. Bankman-Fried?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I would see——I would check daily cryptocurrency dedicated newswires, and it would be many articles on a weekly basis.
MS. KUDLA: During this time period, Mr. Julliard, did you continue to follow FTX on Twitter?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I cannot remember when I precisely stopped following the account, but yes.
MS. KUDLA: And you had mentioned previously that you did follow FTX, however, though.
MS. KUDLA: And that was true with Mr. Bankman-Fried?
MS. KUDLA: So during the time period after opening your account what types of news did you hear about Mr. Bankman-Fried?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, it goes to what I said earlier. He would generally be a leader of the crypto industry and the face of the crypto industry. I remember some——I remember seeing videos with him and politicians. I remember him bailing out companies, other cryptocurrency companies, and the——and pledging money to——to help customers that were detrimentally affected by the consequences of that.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, might we have a limiting instruction about that testimony.
JUDGE KAPLAN: You have to enlighten me a little more about what you want it to be limited to.
MR. COHEN: Yes, that it's——oh, I'm sorry.
(Continued on next page)
(At the sidebar)
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, if I heard correctly, he said he didn't remember what news he heard or followed, and now he's being asked to give a summary of that. I assume the government's not asking that for its truth. I'm fine with the testimony, but I would ask for that instruction. He's giving a summary of——
JUDGE KAPLAN: Of what he heard.
MR. COHEN: Yeah, yeah.
MS. SASSOON: It's being offered for the effect on the listener, so that's fine.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes. Okay.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE KAPLAN: This evidence about what Mr. Julliard remembers from seeing videos about bailing out companies and the other things he mentioned is offered not for the truth of the things that he remembers but for the effect on his actions and knowledge at the time.
MS. KUDLA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, you had mentioned a number of items, and I want to go back to them. First, you had mentioned you had seen photographs or articles of Mr. Bankman-Fried with politicians.
MS. KUDLA: At this point in time can we please show for the witness what is marked as Government Exhibit 1469.
MS. KUDLA: Do you recognize the individuals in Government Exhibit 1469?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: The CEO of FTX to the right, Sam Bankman-Fried; Bill Clinton, a former US president, in the middle; and Tony Blair to the left, our former UK prime minister.
MS. KUDLA: The government offers Government Exhibit 1469.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 1469 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Now, Mr. Julliard, you had also mentioned that you heard about Mr. Bankman-Fried bailing out other cryptocurrency companies at that time. What effect, if any, did hearing this news, seeing who Mr. Bankman-Fried was with, have on you, if any, at all?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Well, one of two. You believe that the person wanted to do good towards people and the industry, so it goes to building your faith in the company and the CEO; and two, I——I don't precisely recall details of——of the——the collapse of Terra and Luna at the time, cryptocurrency-related firms, but my understanding is it was significant amounts of money and therefore that FTX would have excess liquidities and would be in strong financial health.
MS. KUDLA: We could take that down now. Thank you very much.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, I'd like to turn your attention now to November 2022. Did there come a point in November 2022 when you learned that FTX was receiving increased customer withdrawals?
MS. KUDLA: Now at this time what were the forms of information that you were learning? Like how were you learning about this?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I use professional newswires systems, such as Bloomberg; I had a number of news outlets with cryptocurrency-related topics; I would be on social media such as Twitter; and I would also, as I mentioned earlier, go on specialized newswires, such as CoinDesk, for instance.
MS. KUDLA: And when you mentioned social media such as Twitter, did that include Mr. Bankman-Fried's Twitter feed?
MS. KUDLA: And the government offers, pursuant to the stipulation in Government Exhibit S-2001, Government Exhibit 863.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 863 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury, your Honor?
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, looking at the top, who posted this tweet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: SBF account.
MS. KUDLA: And who is SBF?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: FTX CEO, Sam Bankman-Fried.
MS. KUDLA: And what is the date of this tweet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: November the 6th, 2022.
MS. KUDLA: Can we please zoom in on No. 3. November——SBF, November 6, 2022. "3. We've already processed billions of dollars of deposits withdrawals today. We'll keep going. Taking up antispam checks to process more. Sorry if you got those. We're hitting node rate capacities. We'll keep going. Also tons of USD stable coin conversions going on." Did you see this tweet, Mr. Julliard? A. Yes.
MS. KUDLA: And what did you understand from this tweet about the reasons for the slow withdrawals on FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Technical computing difficulties.
MS. KUDLA: Was there any indication from what's written here that there was a shortfall in customer funds?
MS. KUDLA: Did you withdraw your money from your FTX account on November 6, 2022?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: No, I did not.
MS. KUDLA: And can we please take that down now. And pursuant to Government Exhibit S-2001 as to authenticity, the government offers Government Exhibit 866.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 866 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish to the jury, your Honor?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: And Mr. Julliard, who posted this tweet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Sam Bankman-Fried.
MS. KUDLA: And recognizing it's a little bit harder to read, what is the date of this tweet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: November 7th.
MS. KUDLA: Now is that of 2022?
MS. KUDLA: Did you see this tweet?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Absolutely.
MS. KUDLA: We're going to zoom in on No. 1. "A competitor is trying to go after us with false rumors. "FTX is fine. Assets are fine." Can we please zoom in on No. 2. "2. FTX has enough to cover all client holdings. "We don't invest client assets (even in treasuries). We have been processing all withdrawals, and will continue to be." Can we now pull up No. 3. "3. It's heavily regulated. Even when that slows us down, we have gap audits with greater than 1 billion excess cash. We have a long history of safeguarding client assets, and that remains true today." Mr. Julliard, what did you understand about your FTX deposits from this series of tweets?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Money was there, it was fine, technical——technical difficulties, wait for the dust to settle, just sit and wait.
MS. KUDLA: Did you withdraw your money on November 7th?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I did not.
MS. KUDLA: Did you ever attempt to withdraw your money?
MS. KUDLA: And when?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I believe the day after that.
MS. KUDLA: Can we please show for the witness what is marked for identification as Government Exhibit 427.
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, do you recognize this?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. It's a screenshot of my phone app of my withdrawals attempt.
MS. KUDLA: Now the government offers Government Exhibit 427.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 427 received in evidence)
MS. KUDLA: May we publish?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, do you see your first withdrawal attempt anywhere on Government Exhibit 427?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I would have——so I was keeping fiat USD currency on my account for the purpose of having more trading power to buy cryptocurrencies if the prices were coming off, so I could add to my Bitcoin position. I first tried——when I understood the situation was not what it seems, I first tried to withdraw the fiat currency, which isn't the easiest process of the two.
MS. KUDLA: And what was the date of your first withdrawal attempt?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: 8 of November 2022.
MS. KUDLA: And how much did you request to withdraw?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: About $20,000.
MS. KUDLA: Was the request that we see highlighted on the screen, was that request processed?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It was never processed.
MS. KUDLA: How did it make you feel when it was not processed?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Extremely anxious.
MS. KUDLA: And did you make any other subsequent attempts?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes. I then went on to try and withdraw Bitcoin, but because I wasn't clear whether it was technical difficulties or indeed missing money, I——I wanted to spread my transactions and not do all at once, so I went on to try and withdraw one Bitcoin on the same day I tried to withdraw the US dollars.
MS. KUDLA: Was that request processed?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It was never processed.
MS. KUDLA: Now looking at Government Exhibit 427, what was the approximate amount of Bitcoin valued at at that time?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I don't know the exact amounts on that particular day, but Bitcoin was ranging around $20,000.
MS. KUDLA: And in November of 2022, how many Bitcoin did you have in your account?
MS. KUDLA: And how much US dollars did you have in your account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: $20,000.
MS. KUDLA: So fair to say about a hundred thousand dollars?
MS. KUDLA: Were any of the withdrawal requests that we see in Government Exhibit 427 processed?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Never.
MS. KUDLA: And as we sit here today, have you ever been able to withdraw your FTX customer deposits that we see?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Never.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, no further questions on direct.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Thank you. Cross-examination?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN:
MR. COHEN: Good afternoon, Mr. Julliard.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Good afternoon.
MR. COHEN: Now you and I have never met; is that correct?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Correct.
MR. COHEN: And you told us on your direct that you are originally from Paris; is that right?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, Paris suburb.
MR. COHEN: Okay. And you're a French citizen?
MR. COHEN: But you now work for a——you've moved to London; is that correct?
MR. COHEN: And you work as a broker in commodities.
MR. COHEN: Okay. Are you a licensed broker?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I am regulated, yes.
MR. COHEN: Okay. And you said I believe that you——the commodity you work in is cocoa; is that correct?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Correct.
MR. COHEN: Okay. And commodities can be things like cocoa or corn or other products, correct?
MR. COHEN: Okay. Help me understand how you interact with your customers.
MS. KUDLA: Objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Grounds?
MS. KUDLA: Relevance.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, this is to follow up on the direct about his job as a broker. I just want to understand whether he has direct client contact, which was not brought out on direct.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Why don't you ask that question.
BY MR. COHEN:
MR. COHEN: I think I'll ask whether you have direct contact with your clients.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Can I answer?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Oh, yes. I'm sorry.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, I do have direct contact with my clients.
MR. COHEN: And you advise them on commodity purchases they're considering making; is that correct?
MS. KUDLA: Objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Sustained.
MR. COHEN: Now you told us that you opened an account at FTX in, if I have this right, the spring of 2021?
MR. COHEN: Okay. You thought FTX had a good product, correct?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Absolutely.
MR. COHEN: That it was innovative?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I don't know about innovative, but I liked the user interface of the product.
MR. COHEN: You thought it had a strong trading platform.
MR. COHEN: That it was user friendly.
MR. COHEN: That it had a good fee structure.
MR. COHEN: And I think you told us that you were a little bit late to the crypto market; is that correct?
MR. COHEN: And you told us that crypto was not regulated.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It was not regulated by governments of——that's correct.
MR. COHEN: And in fact, sir, isn't that one of the reasons you wanted to put funds into the crypto market?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I was allowed to trade cryptocurrencies because they were not regulated.
MR. COHEN: Right. So just to understand this, at the company you worked for, you were able to trade crypto because it wasn't regulated.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Correct.
MR. COHEN: If you had traded in things that were regulated, you would have had to make disclosures to your company and get them approved.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, correct.
MR. COHEN: And you understood that crypto was new and also a risky asset, didn't you, sir?
MR. COHEN: You could make a lot but you could lose a lot.
MR. COHEN: Now you had other accounts, right? You had a savings account, you had other brokerage accounts?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I have a bank account, a couple.
MR. COHEN: Do you have any other investment accounts?
MS. KUDLA: Objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Basis?
MS. KUDLA: Relevance.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'll allow it. We'll see where it goes.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I have what we call an ISA in England, United Kingdom. It's an investment account akin to preparing for your retirement.
MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't——
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Used to prepare for your retirement.
MR. COHEN: So, okay. I think we might call it a 401(k) here, but okay. So you had that account and you had a savings account, and then you told us you opened a crypto account.
MR. COHEN: And how much of your assets did you put in the crypto account, percentagewise?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I don't know. I cannot answer that.
MR. COHEN: Okay. Is it fair to say that you put 70 percent of your savings into this crypto account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I don't know in British pounds how much I had in there. It would be a significant amount of my savings, yes.
MR. COHEN: Now I think on direct you were shown the slide——I don't think we have to put it up again——where you checked the box that you had received the terms of service for FTX, correct, sir?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, correct.
MR. COHEN: Now you didn't review those at the time, correct?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Not that I can recall.
MR. COHEN: Okay. And I think you also were asked some questions about advertisements. Do you recall we saw the advertisement of the model you called Gisele? Do you recall that, sir?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Sorry. Can you repeat the question.
MR. COHEN: Sure. Let me try a better question. You testified on direct about some advertisements for FTX that you saw, correct?
MR. COHEN: Okay. And one of them was the photo we saw of the model, the fashion model advertising FTX.
MR. COHEN: Okay. Now you're not saying you made an investment decision based on a model, an ad with a model in it, are you, sir?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Correct, I'm not saying that.
MR. COHEN: You certainly didn't make an investment decision based on a Formula One car racing advertisement, correct?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Not investment decision.
MR. COHEN: Now you also mentioned that one of the things that you looked at when you were deciding whether to select FTX was you said that other investors——or excuse me——investors had invested in FTX. Do you recall that, sir?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: So I——I misphrased if I said that. I meant there were many customers not investing into FTX the company but using FTX the exchange as customers.
MR. COHEN: Let me try a better question. I think——correct me if I'm wrong——you told us that one of the things you looked at was that major firms, major investment firms had invested in FTX; is that right?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Yes, correct.
MR. COHEN: Okay. And I believe you told us that this was a factor you considered because those firms did what you called due diligence, correct?
MR. COHEN: So they asked FTX questions about what it was doing and they got their answers and they were satisfied, correct?
MS. KUDLA: Objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Sustained.
MR. COHEN: You took comfort from the fact that other investors had looked at FTX, correct, sir?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Sustained.
MR. COHEN: Now let me move forward to the period in November——
JUDGE KAPLAN: Let me see if I can just help out a little bit. You took comfort from the fact that, as you understood it, other people had invested, and you assumed that they had done their homework; is that right?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It was contributory, yes, correct, on top of doing some of my own research.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Okay. Go ahead, please.
BY MR. COHEN:
MR. COHEN: Okay. You talked about the dates November 6th and 7th and November 8th. Do you recall that testimony, sir?
MR. COHEN: And you told us you had some issues with your withdrawals then, correct?
MS. KUDLA: Objection.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Sustained as to form.
MR. COHEN: Let me rephrase. Before November of 2022, did you ever try to withdraw funds from FTX?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I did not.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, one moment?
(Continued on next page)
MR. COHEN: Sir, is it fair to say that you never met my client in person before today?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Correct.
MR. COHEN: You have never spoken to him in person before today?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Never.
MR. COHEN: You have never emailed with him before today?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Never.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, I have nothing further.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Thank you. Is there any redirect?
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, just very briefly.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. KUDLA:
MS. KUDLA: Mr. Julliard, you were asked about cryptocurrency being risky on cross-examination. Do you recall that?
MS. KUDLA: Is that because the price of Bitcoin could fluctuate very quickly?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: It's a very volatile asset.
MS. KUDLA: Did you ever consider one of the risks of FTX was that they could take your money and spend your money?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: I did not.
MS. KUDLA: And who did you believe owned the Bitcoin and dollars in your FTX account?
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Myself.
MS. KUDLA: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Thank you. Anything further, Mr. Cohen?
MR. COHEN: No, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Thank you, Mr. Julliard.
MARC-ANTOINE JULLIARD: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Anybody on the jury who needs a break or shall we just go? Let's continue.
MS. SASSOON: Your Honor, there is a computer issue that we would like to address, so a five-minute break --
JUDGE KAPLAN: Take a short break.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Ms. Sassoon, I assume that there is agreement on how far in advance you are disclosing your witnesses to the defense.
MS. SASSOON: Yes, your Honor. We disclosed to the defense --
JUDGE KAPLAN: Do you think I could be privy to the understanding so I know what's coming?
MS. SASSOON: Your Honor, that is a very reasonable request. Absolutely. So the next witness is Adam Yedidia. Subsequent to Mr. Yedidia, I suspect we will be calling Matt Huang. And after Matt Huang, Gary Wang, and that will likely take us to the end of this week.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Thank you. Keep me posted as we move along, please.
(Recess)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Ready to bring your witness in?
MS. SASSOON: The government calls Adam Yedidia.
(Jury present)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Your next witness, Ms. Sassoon.
MS. SASSOON: Yes. The government calls Adam Yedidia.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Swear the witness, please. ADAM YEDIDIA, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may proceed, Ms. Sassoon.
MS. SASSOON: Thank you, your Honor.