2.Evidentiary Hearing on All-Hands Meeting Clips
110 lines(Witness excused)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Why don't we break until 3:00, and then we will proceed with another witness.
I'm sorry, counsel.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, we may want to address a couple of issues during the break.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Five after 3, folks.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Counsel.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, for the next witness the government intends to offer a limited number of clips from the all-hands meeting that was recorded in reference on cross-examination, and I believe we had raised this in our motion in limine and provided two bases for the admission of those clips, pursuant to 801(d)(2)(D) as a statement of an agent and also 801(d)(2)(E) as a statement of a coconspirator. At the time your Honor deferred ruling on that until you could hear more further trial testimony.
We now believe that the record supports three independent and equal bases for admission of these clips, the two that I have just mentioned, and now that Ms. Ellison has cross-examined specifically as well, under 801(d)(1)(B) as a prior consistent statement. She has testified today that she learned about the investigation after the all-hands meeting.
In light of that, on November 9, the time that she talked to the employees, she discussed the situation and who was involved and named the people who were aware of the individuals who had knowledge of Alameda borrowing FTX customer deposits to repay its loans.
Now, your Honor, in the transcript, as a statement of an agent there has been ample evidence --
JUDGE KAPLAN: First of all, could you tell me whether it is only Ms. Ellison who speaks on these clips or whether there are other speakers?
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, in almost -- there are six clips. In five of the six clips there are people asking Ms. Ellison questions, and then she responds to those questions.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Presumably, you're offering the questions not for the truth of anything contained in the question, but to demonstrate the questions she was asked so as to give meaning to her answer.
MS. KUDLA: That is correct, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: What about the sixth?
MS. KUDLA: The sixth, she had begun the meeting to tell the employees what the situation was and why there was an issue and a solvency crisis at Alameda. It was part of the remarks that she just talked about about why she was providing a sense of common reassurance to the Alameda employees.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Let me hear from the other side.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
I think on the agency point the comments made at the meeting by Ms. Ellison were beyond the scope of the agency. In fact, we know exactly what her agency scope was because that prior group chat, small group chat messaging where she talks to Mr. Bankman-Fried about what she plans to say at the meeting, she tells them -- this is Government's Exhibit 414A, which is already in evidence -- she says: I'm thinking about what to tell people at the Alameda all hands. Right now I am thinking that Alameda --
JUDGE KAPLAN: You spoke to fast for me to understand.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry, your Honor.
Maybe we could bring it up on the screen too so you can see it.
If we can just pull up Government Exhibit 414A.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: This is the small group chat where the top messages is what she is telling Sam her anticipated remarks are going to be at this meeting. She says: Thinking about what to tell the people at Alameda all hands. Right now I am thinking about a vibe of 'Alameda probably is going to wind down, if you don't want to stay or want to take some time off no pressure, if you do want to help with stuff like making sure lenders get repaid it's super appreciated. Does that seem right? He does respond: He says: And maybe something about there being a future of some sort for those who are excited but that you can't know for sure what it is.
What she tells Mr. Bankman-Fried ahead of the meeting is, this is what I am going to say. I am just going to say, Alameda is probably going to be winding down. Love you to stay if you could, and it would be greatly appreciated if you could. Sam says OK. Maybe you can add: There might be a future here. That's what the scope of the agency is. That's at least what Sam says. I understand what you are going to say, and here is my understanding as well. But they don't talk at all about whether she is going to divulge anything about who did what, about customer funds and this sort of thing.
This is not within the scope of the agency. To the extent an agency existed here, she went well beyond the scope of that agency in making comments. I Think she testified to that just now herself.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Who is the principal in the agency relationship here?
MR. EVERDELL: I think that the government is claiming that she is acting as an agent of my client's. I suppose the government is claiming that she is acting -- that my client is the principal and she is acting on behalf of him, as an agent of him. I think they are going to have to articulate what the basis of the agency is.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, in order for this exception to apply, there has to be the existence of an agency relationship, the statement was made during the course of the relationship, and it relates to the scope.
And here what we have is, we have the existence of an agency relationship. The principal here is Mr. Bankman-Fried, and his agent is Ms. Ellison. She has stated in the testimony that although she handled day-to-day decisions for any major decision, she would always run them by Sam, and she would always ultimately always defer to Sam if he thought that Alameda should do something.
Specifically with respect to this all-hands meeting, she said, with that, she consulted the defendant's input because she generally sought his input on important decisions at Alameda, and she thought like what to tell Alameda employees about what was happening was one of those important decisions.
The other important thing about this rule is that she just has to have the authority to take the action with which the statements relate. It does not have to be authorized by the principal itself.
And here Mr. Bankman-Fried, as Mr. Everdell has acknowledged, was aware that she was going to have this meeting with her employees. She has testified that this is a biweekly Alameda employee meeting and that it was going to happen. She was going to address all employees. He did not seek to remove her as CEO at that time. He did not seek to prevent her from addressing the group in the scope of her employment as CEO to address these employees. Instead, he provided input.
So at that point in time, when she was addressing these employees about what was going on, she was doing so within the scope of her employment at Alameda, as it has been described in the testimony.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Why isn't Alameda the principal?
MS. KUDLA: The defendant owns Alameda.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I understand that, of course, but it was a corporation. Yes? It is a corporation, I guess.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, there has been ample testimony that --
JUDGE KAPLAN: He owned 90 percent of it. I understand that.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, under United States v. Kelley, forms signed by one of the business partners in the course of a business is admissible against another partner showing that Mr. Bankman-Fried, in the action of being the owner of Alameda, is, in effect, also the principal here.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Let me ask Mr. Everdell to go to your second point, 801(d)(1)(B).
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry. The prior consistent statement, your Honor?
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: There, your Honor, I think this just proves too much. It is too general.
I think what the government's theory is is that because Ms. Ellison later divulged information to the government, right, about Mr. Bankman-Fried, that anything she says prior to when she had that motivation to cooperate, anything that she said about Sam or anybody else is therefore a prior consistent statement and then it can be admitted. I think that's way too broad a reading --
JUDGE KAPLAN: Is the defense conceding that what she told the government and what she has testified to here in court about what she said at that meeting is true?
MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Of course not.
You have spent the last day and a half doing your level best -- and I'm not criticizing. I understand it's your job. You should have been doing it -- trying to impugn her credibility. You did that in the opening statement. You are going to do it in closing. Why isn't the fact that she said the same thing before there was even a government investigation admissible as a prior consistent statement?
MR. EVERDELL: I think my point is only, what is the same thing. It seems like what they are saying is that any statement she makes --
JUDGE KAPLAN: They are not saying any statement. They are saying the specific things she told them about what happened and who made the decision about what happened is -- are the relevant prior statements. What's wrong with that analysis?
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. There are other statements in here that are really going to go beyond just who did what in the clips that they are seeking to play.
JUDGE KAPLAN: What are they?
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, you have a transcript binder too which may assist.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I have enough binders here to go into business.
Transcript binder. This is these transcripts, yes?
MS. KUDLA: Correct. These are the clips that the government intends to play, government Exhibits 433A through F.
What you will notice here is that these clips are limited to very specific ways that Alameda had -- describing Alameda's borrowing of FTX customer deposits to repay the loans. It explains that that means of misappropriation was not through the spot-margin program, which has been alluded to by the defense, it goes to the fact of what Alameda used those customer deposits for, and then it goes to who knew that Alameda was using FTX customer deposits.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Let's handle this piece of it in the following way. We are going to have a recess in a minute or two.
If there is anything in here, Mr. Everdell, that you think is not a prior consistent statement on the theory that I just articulated to you, I'd like to know what it is when I come back.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
The other thing is, we have our own clips that we might like to add as well, if the Court is inclined to allow these in.
JUDGE KAPLAN: That's a rule-of-completeness issue and it is a separate issue, and I don't know what they might be, and I can't rule on that in the abstract.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE KAPLAN: What about 801(d)(2)(E)?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, on that --
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'd like to hear from Ms. Kudla on that first. I'll come back to you. I promise.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, I'll circle back on our objections to the rule of completeness. But focusing on --
JUDGE KAPLAN: Don't do that yet. I can only do one thing at a time.
MS. KUDLA: I am going to focus right now on 801(d)(2)(E) for statements in furtherance of the conspiracy by a coconspirator.
The evidence at trial has already established that Mr. Bankman-Fried wanted to keep Alameda afloat, wanted to keep it going. One of the ways that that was occurring was by keeping Alameda employees at Alameda in processing customer withdrawals at that time.
We have evidence in the record talking about the fact that this was not the first occasion that had occurred in Alameda. Ms. Ellison testified that when she began her employment in 2018, she found out that there was a similar incident. Investors had left. Half of the employees had left. By not telling her that, she accepted employment. She continued to work at Alameda.
Now we are in 2022. We have testimony from Gary Wang saying, on November 12, that the defendant instructed him to transfer the remaining customer assets to the Bahamian authorities because, quote, they seemed friendly and seemed willing to let him stay in control of the company.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I remember that testimony.
MS. KUDLA: Evidencing that Mr. Bankman-Fried's intent was to keep Alameda going.
And the statements that we see in Government Exhibit 414 is the single chat with Ms. Ellison and the defendant where he responds that she should add that there may be a future opportunity of some sort for those who are excited, and Ms. Ellison just testified that it would be helpful to have Alameda employees help wind down the company or -- and she also during this meeting referenced the points made by the defendant in this very text.
I think this goes to the fact that it is in fact coconspirator statements being used in furtherance of the conspiracy, which is to keep Alameda afloat while there are opportunities to ensure that potentially the Binance deal goes through, that the customers get paid back, which would lessen the chance of an investigation or anything else.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think there is an inherent inconsistency in that theory, which is, she is talking to a room full of people who are not alleged to be coconspirators.
If all they want to do in furtherance of the conspiracy, to further the conspiracy, is to try to keep employees there and working so that maybe the company can survive if the Binance deal goes through, the last thing you are going to do is start divulging things about who knew what and when about the crime that you allegedly committed.
It would be enough to simply say what Mr. Bankman-Fried said in the text, which is, we want you all to stay. There may be a future here. We would like you guys to stay if you like. If you want to argue that is in furtherance of the conspiracy to keep people working, so the company doesn't collapse in the meantime, OK. But everything else about these sort -- the government is going to characterize this as an admission. It is certainly not in furtherance of the conspiracy because you wouldn't do that in front of people who you didn't think were part of it.
I don't see how any of those statements would be under 801(d)(2)(E) as coconspirators.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I am going to take it at least as a prior consistent statement.
When I come back, I want to know any part of it specifically that Mr. Everdell claims is not a prior consistent statement, as we discussed a few minutes ago. I would give a limiting instruction if I take it on that basis.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: If you can agree on what that instruction ought to say, so much the better, but it's not my first rodeo.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you want the clips that the defense would propose as well?
JUDGE KAPLAN: No. I am not up to the rule of completeness.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I'll see you in ten minutes.
(Recess)
JUDGE KAPLAN: Rule of completeness.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: The defense has handed up Defendant's Exhibit 415A-T and 415B-T for identification.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor. Those are provided by the government.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I appreciate that.
Can you tell me where in the sequence by reference to the government exhibits that I've been given these would supposedly be relevant?
MR. EVERDELL: These fall at the end of the meeting. But I will -- for A, these relate to the portions of the government's clips that refer to the open-term loans, which are -- there are several. For example, their first clip, which starts on page 15 of the transcript, talks about, on 15, line 14 and 15 --
JUDGE KAPLAN: You're losing me. Where?
MR. EVERDELL: Government Exhibit 433A, which is their first clip.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Where?
MR. EVERDELL: It's page 15, line 14 and 15.
JUDGE KAPLAN: I think we are not communicating.
I am looking in the first clip at page 1. Is that the page I am supposed to be looking at?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, if it's the clip that starts OK, let's get started --
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the clip. If you go down a few lines, I don't know if you have the line numbers on the side, but my line number --
JUDGE KAPLAN: I do.
MR. EVERDELL: 14 and 15. Where it says: Alameda was kind of borrowing a bunch of money via open-term loans and use that to make various illiquid investments.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Yup.
MR. EVERDELL: That's one.
There are other references, I can try to find them for you as well, where they talk about these open-term loans. But there is some general discussion in a few of the clips about the open-term loans and the nature of the repayment of the open-term loans.
Your Honor, our clip, which is the first of the two clips, talks about -- it's Ms. Ellison talking about how the loans were obtained.
You can see on our exhibit, Defendant's Exhibit 415A-T, there is a question posed: How is Alameda able to get all of those loans made? How were we able to get that much money? And the response is: I don't know. Do you ever read about like Celsius or Three Arrows or whatever, like the crypto lending space is kind of wild for a long time. People have a lot of money. Didn't really like to read your balance sheet. Just lent you a lot of money.
JUDGE KAPLAN: What's the government's position on that?
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, Rule 106 is not a mechanism to basically bypass the hearsay rules on self-serving testimony, and that's what this is here. All of the clips that the government is introducing are firsthand knowledge from Ms. Ellison about Alameda's actions.
Here in this, which occurs an hour later from -- approximately an hour later from the first statements that you see in 433A, Ms. Ellison is being asked about the mindset of other crypto lenders. She is being asked to opine about their mindset, which is directly in conflict with your Honor's motion in limine ruling that the idea of the gullibility or negligence of the victims is simply not relevant to criminal intent here.
This does not complete in any way the clips that the government is choosing to put into evidence, and it's simply intended to go through to lenders such as Celsius or Three Arrows Capital, what they would have been looking at when lending money to Alameda. That's, you know, not within the clips that we are admitting.
JUDGE KAPLAN: What about 415B, Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
So this is really more of -- it goes to all the clips as a whole because it's more about the amount of Ellison's state of mind or her emotion at the time.
This clip is on the next page. It starts at line 19, where she posed the question: I am sure this is not that fun for you, but certainly appreciate how open you've been. And her response is: Thanks. I mean, it was kind of fun. I don't know. Then the response to that is: OK then. Never mind. She sort of giggles at this and laughs a bit, chuckles almost.
I think, independent of being a rule of completeness issue -- the clips that the government plans to play, I think, they intend to argue from it that this is a sober, unburdening and admission by Ms. Ellison of what she had done.
This clip tends to show that she has a very different emotional state and reaction to what she is telling the people at the meeting and that it is not some confession on her part but that she has a different emotional reaction.
On that front, your Honor, I think it's also admissible separately under 803(3) to show the emotional state of the declarant.
JUDGE KAPLAN: If that's true, it would be something that would arise on your case, if there is one.
The second argument doesn't cut it.
I'll take it on the first basis, but -- I don't want to get these pieces of papers mixed up. But I am not going to take 415A. It's not rule of completeness material. And even if it was, it wouldn't be admissible because it's just wild speculation.
That's where we are.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry, your Honor. Just so I'm clear, neither of the two clips are coming in.
JUDGE KAPLAN: No. The second one, 415B-T, I'll let you play at the end of whenever the government plays its clips.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. On a matter of logistics, I assume the government is going to be playing their clips in a row. Ours actually follows at the end of the transcript.
JUDGE KAPLAN: That's what I understood. Then you will get a chance to play 415B-T.
MS. KUDLA: Your Honor, can we address 415B.
The government's position is that if this is being admitted to show Ms. Ellison's then existing mental state, she was on cross-examination for six hours. They clearly could have asked her about that. Now you are going to have a witness who cannot comment -- they can comment on her demeanor during the meeting, but they certainly cannot comment on her mental state. If they were going to elicit this, they should have done it on cross-examination.
JUDGE KAPLAN: That's probably right. But it is very rare that a judge has the privilege of trying a case with so many really smart and accomplished lawyers, and an argument can be made for almost anything. That doesn't mean they are all necessarily right.
But 415B-T just doesn't matter in this case, in my humble opinion. It doesn't matter because -- this is only my take on what I heard today and only the tiniest part of it. The witness testified at length, it was the worst week of her life, and she said it was the worst day of her life and never had she felt so relieved in her life. If she chuckled or said it was fun, there are plenty of explanations of that.
All things considered, I am going to give the defendant the benefit of the doubt on that excerpt.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
Just on logistics then, do we play it when the government plays its clips --
JUDGE KAPLAN: The government is going to play six clips.
MS. KUDLA: Correct, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: You have told me sequentially your clip comes way after that.
MR. EVERDELL: That's correct, your Honor.
JUDGE KAPLAN: You will get to play it after they play their sixth clip. OK.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Are these clips going to come all together?
MS. KUDLA: No, your Honor. They will be done in sequential fashion, and I'll go one by one.
JUDGE KAPLAN: The next witness is going to be who?
MS. KUDLA: Christian Drappi.
(Jury present)
JUDGE KAPLAN: The jurors and the defendant all are present, as they have been throughout.
Call your next witness.
MS. KUDLA: The government calls Christian Drappi.
JUDGE KAPLAN: Before you begin, let me just say to the jury, sorry for the longer intermission, but it will yield dividends in time saved later this afternoon and overall. CHRISTIAN DRAPPI, called as a witness by the government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE KAPLAN: You may proceed.
MS. KUDLA: Thank you, your Honor.